[00:00:00.640] - Sarah
Hi alla!

[00:00:02.560] - Alla
Hey Sarah.

[00:00:04.480] - Sarah
So good to see you.

[00:00:06.960] - Alla
Good to see you too.

[00:00:09.600] - Sarah
What are the vibes today? How are you feeling? How is your heart?

[00:00:14.160] - Alla
I'm feeling good. Confused but good, for the most part. How are you?

[00:00:22.880] - Sarah
Cool, I'm good. The sun is out. My heart feels, I mean every day my heart feels quite heavy for
everything that's going on in the world. But it does feel slightly light as well, just because it's
good weather. I'm going to have a very cute weekend with people that I love and I'm actually
heading to a Digital Liberation Retreat by our friends at Weaving Liberation next week in Bosnia.
Yeah. So that's exciting.

[00:00:48.790] - Alla
Amazing.

[00:00:50.710] - Sarah
So thanks so much for taking the time. I'm so happy that we're going to record this together and
to get into the flow and maybe let people know a little bit about you because we're so excited to
have you as one of our sparing partner and mentor for upcoming residency on Coalition in times
of AI. Really, really cool. And so intersecting struggles, cross disciplinary practices, I know that
you do so many really, really cool things. So maybe if you can tell us a little bit more about some of the things that you work on that are related specifically to AI, community, technology and things that are maybe exciting to you at the moment in your work.

[00:01:32.900] - Alla
Yes. So thank you so much also for having me. I love being the sparring partner and I really
look forward to for the residency to start in online form and in the physical form then. Totally. I'm
also very excited and nervous about this, honestly. So, yes. And I hope that I could just be of
help, you know, in the, in the process with coming from my current practice. And this is where I
will share maybe what I've been doing in this year. I come like, coalition building and community
is something that I actually sort of had to unlearn and relearn and now I'm unlearning it and
relearning it again actually because I come from Tatarstan in Russia and you know, in the post
Soviet space, in the Soviet space, we being part of a collective was very normal. It's like you
grew up your family, but also it's not just your family, it's also all the families around. And what I
want to say with this is that coming to Germany then and the country that is a western country
that is so focused on individualism, et cetera and like, you know, going to the US in between, I
actually really liked this.

[00:02:50.680] - Alla
I was like, yes, individual, you know, like I need to become like, you know, this like individual
kind of person and stuff. And then I started when I moved to Berlin, I encountered a different,
this fight against this individuality and more like towards community and you know, communal
organizing, communal life. And this was so strange to me because I was like, why would people
want to do this? Because I did not, you know, because I come from a place where you had to
liberate from being part of a forced community. And, and, and here people were like really like
wanting to be part of a community. So a lot of its elements and I really don't know how it is, you
know, like how coalitions or communities work in other countries. I only now like beyond my, like
where I come from and how things are here in Berlin. I think it's also pretty special, you know,
here with like, with the all the left-oriented, you know, communities and like shared living and
housing situations, etc. So complex for me, this like the question of collectivity. Because a lot of
things when I moved, when I started living in Berlin and became part of different, you know,
collective organizations, organizings, I didn't like it really because I didn't understand why
people do this.

[00:04:09.960] - Alla
But of course now with the time, things changed a lot because, because I'm part of the dgtl
fmnsm Kollektiv and I kind of grew into this understanding how to be part of a group of people
because I really was more working individual, how to be part of a group, how to take care of each other, how does it work, how to accept care that is given to you and how does it empower
you in the face of struggles that you face as a queer person, as a marginalized person, as a
migrantized person. This is like my experience. So there are a lot of things that you encounter
that are not. That are like the things that I live through, that I understand this are not norm or like
this is not like a normative experience of other people who live here in Germany. Like being part
of communities really gives me standing. So now what I started even I started my own kind of a
communal organizing. So now, this year was the first time when I actually initiated something. I
won't call it a community, but I will call it a coalition. And probably there is a difference between
communities and coalitions.

[00:05:19.310] - Alla
I need to say I didn't think long enough about it. And it's a coalition that happened because I
needed a space where I could reconnect with people who have my like lived experience similar
to mine, who have a similar to mind background, people who come from post Soviet Trans
Soviet space. People who left the country for various reasons which are politically motivated,
like to a bigger or smaller scale. People who are interested who. People who are, of course,
critical towards like Russian government. People who belong to the anti war resistance
movement. The people who do not come from the center of Russia, not from Moscow, not from
St. Petersburg, who belong to the margins of, you know, like post Soviet and Russian territories,
from national republics and like regions that people in the west never even heard of. Because
when I say I come from Tatarstan, often the reaction is oh yeah, Kazakhstan. And I'm like, no,
it's literally a different country... And what I organized. So I had this like, need to kind of like
reconnect with people. But also because I work in technology and I am very interested in how
like exploring or interrogating, inquiring as an artist, how digital technology, AI.

[00:06:37.860] - Alla
To me, AI is like an ultimate technology among technologies because it kind of encapsulates all
sorts of technological developments that you had in the past 100 years. So. And I was like, I
really need to, you know, talk about it. But I cannot continue speaking about this just with my
Western colleagues because it's just the. The type of a conversation is different. Some things
are just not common. we often miss like lack like a common understanding. So I always have to
adapt to a certain commonness around me and. And then translate my thoughts also towards
technology to this, you know, common ground of. Of mentality of, you know, knowledge base
that you like that you have to sort of operate within as a person who is like living in migration.
Yeah. So I was like, yes, I really want to hang out. I want to meet up. I want to collect this group.
I want to. I want us to talk about technology. I want us to talk about how the Soviet Union is a.
Like Soviet Union and Russia today are colonial forces, imperial forces. Because this conversation is very new and how to combine our understanding of technology and where the
world is heading without understanding that we're coming from colonial experience.

[00:07:59.410] - Alla
And this decolonial dialog in the trans Soviet space is very new. It's just like, really there's not a
lot of conversation about it. It's just like, you know, they're like little authors who write about it.
There's Madina Tlastanova, who is. Who've been researching a lot on this. But then like for the
post Soviet space or trans Soviet space, but like, everything happens in a conversation. A lot of
the research that happens within these groups that are interested in the, in the decolonial dialog
of the trans Soviet space, as many indigenous cultures also or like ethnic often are focusing on
the past. So because you need to preserve tradition, you need to, you need to look at. Because
you know, in Russia right now what is happening is this trend of like crucification. So there is no
like money there. Like the money flows into, you know, support and development of the national
cultures. The like, so many different national indigenous cultures that exist in, in the Russia
slash post Soviet space that were kind of funding the language development is not being
supported. Basically there is no future for these cultures unless, you know, people do
something.

[00:09:15.970] - Alla
So people focus on really preserving these cultures and don't really look into the future. And I
say future, I often talk about future and technology sort of in like, not interchangeably, but to me
it like really, really belongs together. Thinking about technology, thinking about the future,
because they come from, from the same understanding, you know, like modernity and modern
world and so on. So like they really belong to me together. Anyway, I'm going on, going on my
like lecture mode now about the trans Soviet space. But okay, what I want to say is it's very
important to think into the future, to kind of speculate about future and future technologies to be
able to influence how the world will develop. Coalition that was built is with my friend Dinara
Rasuleva, who is also my artistic partner in TATAR KYZ:LAR Music project, who is a Tatar
poetess, also we like Dinara helped me a lot to kind of find people because she's much more
connected to the community. So we sort of like made these joint like invitations to be part of
these research sessions. And they were called Decolonial Envisioning research sessions.

[00:10:39.010] - Alla
And with these 15 people, we started talking about, of course there is a moment where we talk
about we need to reflect who we are. Because like talking about coalition and community, I
always come with the question, so who are we? Who is this group? Who are part of this group?
Because I think it's important to when you become a group to identify what kind of group you are. Like, who are you for each other? And especially for us who come from a trans Soviet
space, because this collectivity was forced and there is this Russian language and Russian,
Slavic, Russian, Ruski. It's called like in English, Russian and Russian, like as a country and as
an ethnicity is the same, but in Russian language there are actually two different words for this.
So I'm talking about like ethnic Russian. And this culture had Always been so dominant because
there's always this idea of a big brother and a small brother. You know, it was very important for
us to sort of open up the space and talk about who we are and, you know, so that there is no
domination, like, and there's no domination of language.

[00:11:49.310] - Alla
There is no domination of so kind of like, way of doing things on the table. There is no
domination of, you know, trauma or experience, even that you put on the table. Okay, so trying
to know this is my problem. Like, it's an ADHD thinking. So I'm going, like, on the rants of
different associations. But I'm almost done with this description. Should I? Because I want to
describe a specific project.

[00:12:18.640] - Sarah
Yeah, please, go ahead. Go ahead. Absolutely.

[00:12:20.960] - Alla
Okay. So the project, because the idea to get together with this community was to think of how
AI - this was the goal of this decolonial visioning research session - was idea to envision how AI
could. Could be imagined differently. How could this group embody some type of an AI and
envision some type of an AI rooted in, like, everyone's lived experience as indigenous person,
as a migrant and as queer person, as, you know, artistic or cultural producer or political activist,
etc. Like, rooted in this experience, but individually, but also because we all come from different
cultures, but also collectively reflecting what kind of collective are we? What unites us here?
Where do we share experience? And how could we become technology? So for this purpose,
first we had the session with Dinara Rasuleva, who opened up a space, and we became very
vulnerable and open, and we shared a lot of trauma and we cried and we kind of, like, became
very close to each other and opened up a lot. And this is very precious, hearing stories from our
past and things that we had to leave behind. Then at the end of our session, Dinara was asking
a question.

[00:13:30.130] - Alla
So what from this past of yours would you like to take to the future? And this is like a little bridge
to thinking, you know, about the future. And then, like, everyone could draw a tarot card. Interlinked projects, like, this is my older project called Cyboregoisie Tarot , and it's talking about
technology, queer ways of life and coexistence and the community kind of like, my experience
here in Germany, it covers that. So people drew the tarot card and there was some
technological, like, input in the tarot card. And then everyone could, like, everyone started
envisioning their own type of technologies and little, like, imaginations of what rooted in their
cultures. What could they take to the future? And then the next day, with Noam Youngrak Son,
the resident of your residency from the last year (c.f. In the loop residency by Dreaming Beyond
AI - on AI Time and temporality) . This is also how, of course I know Noam. And I'm so grateful
that I got to meet Noam because we then were able to develop the second day of the session,
which was about AI embodiment, where Noam prepared this amazing input about materiality of
AI based on Kate Crawford's understanding and the atlas of AI. This work, of course, that
became a book.

[00:14:49.840] - Alla
But of course it's a much larger body of work, how AI is material and how it involves resources,
like Earth resources, but also of course, bodies. And so because like, for many, like, for most of
like people in the group, right, these are completely new topics. Nobody knows about this.
People don't know how it works. People like really do not even dare to tackle with technology
because it's just too complicated. This is a very common, common issue that I encounter. And
coming from this certain life lived experience, you just don't have space for, you know, thinking
about technology. So Noam gave the input, that input. And then we played the larp. So no one
prepared this, the LARP cards, which were like super interesting because like we had to then
like our little ideas that we had from the previous day, you know, we then had to deconstruct
them into a character of a live action role playing. So the idea was to kind of think about
technology as something that is embodied. And LARP is a very embodied type of a game
because you develop a character and then you embody and you develop rules for a character
and how your character interacts with the world.

[00:16:00.390] - Alla
And then you sort of, this is how you play the game. And this is what we did, only our characters
were those technologies rooted in the native cultures of the participants. And so then step by
step, we creating those links, we created this visualization of an AI system, which is very
unproductive in a sense of what technology could be. But it was tremendous in sort of breaking
this limits in your head in what technology can be. And then on the last day with of course our
favorite Iyo (c.f. Iyo Bisseck, Dreaming Beyond AI's Design lead).

[00:16:38.140] - Sarah
Yes, we love Iyo!

[00:16:40.450] - Alla
Yes, Iyo love you. Iyo prepared a part that was about archiving and raising archives collectively.
Because then, you know, we took our little technologies and also we had to prepare little data
banks of our family photos. And then with this, we kind of like worked on developing a set of
principles of how do we want to handle an archive. And this was an amazing process. So what I
want to share is that like it was we did a lot of learning and learning from each other. And at the
end everyone cried, you know, because it was such a sad, like happy sad moment of saying
goodbyes. Because when it was over, it felt like we've developed something, we created. I think
I was high like for three days, really like I was like almost like flying I felt. Because all of a
sudden we opened up a space that never existed. Because I was not like the conversation on
decolonial dialog in a trans Soviet space was something that was new for me. Rather, of course
I can, you know, I haven't been really in exchange with people about it and then others like
really haven't been in exchange like, or haven't really been thinking about technology.

[00:17:55.030] - Alla
So kind of like. And we all of a sudden together we created this space. And this is type of a
coalition that makes so much sense for me that it exists. And this made me like really change
my perspective on also how a community can be, you know, how it can work. Because of
course now we have chat that goes on, it's on telegram, it's been in March, you know, it still
lives on. And we kind of like communicate and people became friends, People started dating
people. I don't know, like, you know, this is like a lot of things happened in that, in that, in that
group. And I'm just so grateful that, that I kind of like had support of, you know, people around
me to implement it. And it was beautiful. And this became like a kickoff for like other things,
further thinking for me to how else collectivity or like this kind of like organization could, you
know, what shapes could it take? Especially when we talk about technology, how could this
change technologies? When we think about technologies and when we think about the
temporalities, how could it be something else?

[00:18:58.010] - Alla
How could it be different?

[00:19:00.010] - Sarah
No, in this space we don't apologize. I absolutely love it. I just have so many follow up
questions, so I need to gather myself. But there are so many super important connections and
links from everything that you described. I'm very grateful also that you shared in such detail and openness the way you've been socialized and your past and childhood and all the context
around that, which I think informs a lot of what you do today, which is so interesting. I think it
was great also to talk about, you know, the decoloniality, which I know is very important in your
work. And there's so many obviously links to, you know, colonial practices and technology. If
you think of Congo and. And so many other things anyways that are at play to this day. So I
would love to also hear you more on like the coalition building in practice. How you build that
community, bringing 15 people together, asking people in your networks, from what I
understand also, like loved ones that you work with that can support you to do this work. You
mentioned also being part of dgtl fmnsm, who we love as well.

[00:20:00.580] - Sarah
Love digital feminism. Friends of Dreaming Beyond AI <3 and yeah, and also, like, just, you
know, if we think of feminist values within coalition building, like the crying together, the
vulnerability, how do we create sustainability as well? Like where, you know, does this group
and this coalition goes, what's the vision? Not in a, you know, again, like, I don't know,
productivity, dictatorship way. But I love all of that. So I'd love to hear more like in practice, how
did that look like, you know, to create this coalition? Because, I mean, it's quite a lot of people
actually. And it feels like a responsibility also even to bring these people together.

[00:20:41.230] - Alla
I think a very important aspect for me was, unfortunately, we live in capitalism ongoing. And
such an important aspect is money. And I'm grateful that I was able to also pay for people's time
being there. So many things that are important. Love each other, care for each other, you know,
respect each other, listen to each other, take time. You know, like, I'm learning all of this still
ongoingly, how to, you know, be part of a group. And also I fail a lot, you know, in this. And I like
acknowledging these failures is already a big step. I think that money, you need funding for
these groups to be able to come together because this type of work cannot be unpaid. For me,
the work starts long before the group talk comes together. For me, the work starts at the point
when, like, I'm like, okay, so where do I find money for this? Because I won't ask people to
come and do things for free. Or it's a question what people I would ask, but I will never ask
migrants, for instance, to come and do things for free. Like this type of funded situations.

[00:21:57.340] - Alla
They do exist, but usually you have to do something for that. You have to provide work, you
have to deliver a result. And here we. There was no. I was just inviting people. I was like, I am
grateful for you to take three days. And this is the amount of money that you will get for just
taking time for this. And, and really this is the world I want to live in. And it was my little kind of like utopia that was happening in those. Yeah. In those three days. So, yeah, I think money is
unfortunately very unsexy, but a very pragmatic moment. And I guess you guys know how it is
because this is exactly like where you're grinding to no?

[00:22:37.330] - Sarah
Absolutely, and I mean, the horrible thing about capitalism is that we are forced to participate.
So at the end of the day, you know, we need funding money to be able to create the spaces that
we envision, to be able to not reproduce the extractivist practices of like, unpaid labor or to like,
just be. No, just, you know, "can I pick your brain or like, have a little bit of your time" and just
like, you know, not pay people? So absolutely. This is super, super key and I'm very happy that
you mentioned that because indeed, all of the values, you know, active listening, care,
accountability. Yes, yes, yes. But baby, we need money as well to get things started. So thank
you so much. That's. That's a very important point. You did mention utopia and like, you know,
some of the visions that you have. So I want to also ask you about that a little bit. If you can
describe for, for me, for the listeners, people will be taking time to hear about that. Your vision of
what I, what I like to call, I know is used in different concepts. Softer, lighter, you know, more
loving, digital future.

[00:23:38.000] - Sarah
Who's around you? How does it feel in your body? What is in your ear in terms of soundscape?
And how does it feel in this utopia?

[00:23:49.840] - Alla
I just said utopia and I immediately regretted that I said utopia. I actually promised myself not to
use this word, but it just became so, you know, part of the, of this. It's a habit how we express
things, especially in the context of, you know, queer utopia etc, where it is still kind of positively
connotated. But on the, on the term of utopia and dystopia, I just, you know, right now I'm at a
point when I'm like, these things exist simultaneously. What is utopia for one is dystopia for
another. I really do not want to call place where I want to get a utopia because. And I don't want
to strive for this either. And this is why I do not know where I want to go. And if, like to your
question of how does it feel? You know, like, I really like this question because it really made me
again realize that I really do not feel, know I'm. I feel these days that I'm moving in the dark. But
it's not a bad. It's not a. Like this darkness doesn't feel bad. It's not really scary, but I just do not
know the direction I feel like that my eyes are closed and I'm just, you know, touching things
around me and I might hear things and I might smell things, but, like, really, I do not know which
direction I'm going.

[00:25:02.180] - Alla
And also I do not know where I want to. Like, where I will get. For sure, where I want to get is
your world that is just more fair, more open and honest and healthy. Like, one of the most
positive experiences with activating the senses, activating, envisioning, was actually with this
pie. My mom taught me how to bake this pie, really from scratch. And I even made like a little
video, you know, how to mix it all, how to cut the dough, how to prepare the ingredients, how to
make this decoration. And yeah, it was just this moment when it was me and my mom and my
other family members, my siblings, and we were just there. And it was not an easy moment, but
it was so uniting, making this pie and then baking it and then having it together. And this made
me think of a pie as a type of a communication device. Something that allows, like a pie like
that, the process, it's the recipe, the steps of its making, the ingredients that you put inside, how
this becomes a communication device. Device so that only people who participate in the
creation of this device and who.

[00:26:14.260] - Alla
Only people who put the ingredients inside know what's inside and what is happening. It's also a
temporary communication device, one that only works for those who've been part of its creation.
And this, and this is, you know, a vision that is so unfinished, but it has taste, it has smell, it has
touch to it, it has life and history and connection. And somehow when I think of, you know,
future of some type of a different temporality than maybe now or a better world, I think that I
usually say future, I actually mean better world. That this is. Yeah, this is my glimpse of hope.
Something that makes me, you know, excited. And this was like one vision that came out of
those sessions. And right now I'm like, there will be a conversation with the computer scientist
that I will have soon on the panel. And I was like, asking the moderation, can I please talk to this
person about my idea of the device like that. And just to hear their perspective, how would they
think this could be implemented? And somehow in advance already I'm like, probably it's going
to be a very terrible idea because they come from a training, they come from a.

[00:27:28.610] - Alla
I don't know, but, you know, like, now my big question is how this, this. Could this become an
actual thing?

[00:27:35.930] - Sarah
I think it's a great idea. Definitely. Yeah. As that person about that, I love this. And maybe
they're gonna be like error 404, you know, then. Then that's also informative. No, I don't know. I
like the idea and just what you said about. I, I'm taking notes because I. There's something that.
What you said about, you know, things that are unfinished or like some idea that you have specifically about this device being unfinished remind me of something that Ramon Amaro said
when I met him. So that's the author of The Black Technical Object thing about. Yeah, around.
Around technology and blackness and so many other concepts together. And I met him back in
April in Rotterdam, and he mentioned something about being okay with unfinished thought
session reflections, not always drawing conclusions, because a lot of what we work on is not
going to be finished for a long time. And that's. And that's okay, you know, like something also
wrong. We can save the world next week, which I thought was really interesting. But yeah, the
idea of, you know, being okay with the unfinished and maybe through coalition building, there
are things that can, you know, advance shift, redirect, be different.

[00:28:45.110] - Sarah
And that's okay.

[00:28:46.630] - Alla
Totally. It's a great reminder. Thank you also for this. Maybe generally helps me for today and
the past few days and for the coming days, I think, to be just like, yes, it's actually totally fine
because the, The dance we're dancing is really like. It's one that you dance on a long breath. I
might never see the ends of it. And I just get so impatient.

[00:29:13.570] - Sarah
I feel that. Beautiful alla we are coming slowly to a close of this beautiful episode, and I'm so
grateful for all of the wisdom and experience and beautiful things that you shared. I want to ask
if there are things that inspire you, give you hope around the work that you're doing, and if
there's something that you'd like to recommend to our listeners in terms of something that
inspired you recently and that can be in the form of art and music. Any content that you think
would be interesting for our listeners to listen to or come across.

[00:29:46.650] - Alla
Honestly, I think that I can't. Not now, but I will think about it. And while the episode is being
edited, I will just send you a link and this will be in the description of the podcast.

[00:30:03.490] - Sarah
That is perfect. Perfectly fine. Thank you so much. Super. All right. Any final words, something
else that you want to say that maybe we didn't touch on?

[00:30:12.850] - Alla
Thank you so much, Sarah. No, I love talking to you and thank you for preparing this episode,
for your beautiful questions and for your amazing energy and I'm like, just really looking forward
for all of us seeing each other more often in the next. In the next months, online and offline and
being on this episode is part of it for me. And, like, part of this ongoing conversation. I'm grateful
that we could do this and thank you for your kind and patient ear.

[00:30:43.240] - Sarah
Yes. Thanks so much.

[00:30:44.920] - Alla
You're the best.

[00:30:45.960] - Sarah
Thank you.